From Ian.Barnes@cs Wed Oct 23 11:17:23 2002 To: Peter Strazdins Subject: Re: Pedestrians on Shared Paths Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:01:24 +1000 Cc: csitRTW@cs Peter, In the latest RTW newsletter you wrote: A more sensible development in the issue of shared paths is a move by Pedal Power to introduced to the ACT Road Rules that 'all path users required to keep to the left'. This policy is already in force in SA, Vic & Qld. As someone who uses the shared paths for both riding and walking, I object strongly to this. What this says is that as a walker on the path I am supposed to trust cyclists travelling at 20-30 km/h to avoid me when they come up on me silently from behind. This is exactly the same problem faced by cyclists on roads with cars, trucks and buses coming up from behind, and is why as a cyclist I don't like riding on roads. If I walk on the left, I have to trust cyclists not to run into me. While I'm sure no-one in the DCS ride-to-work group rides irresponsibly, and neither does anyone in Pedal Power, I can't say the same for all cyclists. There are plenty of idiots out there who think the cycle path is only for them, and who think they are in the Tour de France. I will not put my life in their hands. If I walk on the right, I don't have to worry quite so much about the idiots coming up on me silently from behind. And I can step off the path when I see an idiot coming from in front. Much safer for me. This is what my grandfather taught me about walking on roads where there is no footpath. It wouldn't work for riding bikes on roads because a bike can't easily step off to the side. I believe Pedal Power and the legislation in all those states are wrong. Until legislation can guarantee that all cyclists will respect the safety of pedestrians (which will never happen) I will continue to protect myself by walking on the right. I'm disappointed by Pedal Power's attitude. Rather than promoting safe shared use, what they're doing is promoting cyclists only, and endangering pedestrians. Ian ------------------------------------------------------------ Dr Ian Barnes Email: barnes@cs Department of Computer Science Phone: +61 2 6125 3003 Australian National University Fax: +61 2 6125 0010 ------------------------------------------------------------ From Marie.Wensing@anu.edu.au Wed Oct 23 12:10:45 2002 Subject: RE: Pedestrians on Shared Paths From: "Marie Wensing" To: "Ian Barnes" Cc: Ian There is more to the issue. You may have it all clear what you will do when a cyclist approaches head on and there is a cyclists approaching from behind but what about the two cyclists? In my experience, also as a cyclist and a walker, those walking on the right side of the path feel comfortable until a cyclist rings a bell.The majority of walkers then immediately jump to the left, some go further to the right, but unfortunately, the cyclist can't predict this. The potential for collision increases. Part of Pedal Power's charter is education. Hopefully we can get the message out there that left is good if all parties consider each other, in particular, cyclists show consideration by using their bell. There is no need for decisions or erratic movement, everyone just follows the rules that apply on the road.=20 No legislation can accommodate stupidity and unfortunately, this applies to both cyclists and walkers.Good signage is the best tool and the best exmaple of this is the shared paths in both Adelaide and Wollongong - no confusion there using the left side, but they are well marked by with erect signs and on path markings. Although of note in Adelaide, people are more disciplined with their dogs around the paths- none of this letting them roam off the edges without leads. Another issue to campaign on! Marie Wensing Treasurer Pedal Power ACT Inc Reply to: treasurer@pedalpower.org.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Pedestrians on Shared Paths Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:35:28 +1000 From: Ian Barnes To: "Marie Wensing" Marie, Thanks for your reply. On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:54, you wrote: > You may have it all clear what you will do when a cyclist > approaches head on and there is a cyclists approaching from > behind but what about the two cyclists? In my experience, > also as a cyclist and a walker, those walking on the right > side of the path feel comfortable until a cyclist rings a > bell.The majority of walkers then immediately jump to the > left, some go further to the right, but unfortunately, the > cyclist can't predict this. The potential for collision > increases. I disagree. I certainly don't jump to the left if I hear a bell, although I have to say that in the last four years that I have been walking to work from Lyneham I'm sure I could count the number of times I've heard a bell on the fingers of one hand. And if the cyclist can't predict what a pedestrian is going to do, then the cyclist should slow down, to a walking pace if necessary. The fundamental problem is that of vehicles of greatly differing speed sharing a road or path. It doesn't work for cars and bikes on roads and it doesn't work for bikes and pedestrians on paths. Saying that it would all be fine if everyone was sensible is just unrealistic. It's like saying there wouldn't be any need for money if we all just took what we needed and gave what we could. True, but no economist is suggesting it as a practical solution to the distribution of wealth. > Part of Pedal Power's charter is education. Hopefully we can > get the message out there that left is good if all parties > consider each other, in particular, cyclists show > consideration by using their bell. There is no need for > decisions or erratic movement, everyone just follows the > rules that apply on the road. The road rules don't work well for cyclists on the roads either. Frankly I think you'd have to be mad to ride a bike on our roads the way people drive, and you'd have to be mad to walk on the left of a "shared path" the way people ride. In an ideal world perhaps you're right that everyone keeping left would work, but cyclists who have been killed by cars and buses weren't living in an ideal world, and pedestrians run down by cyclists aren't either. As for "the rules that apply on the road", they suggest that faster vehicles should wait behind slower ones until it is safe to overtake. When did a cyclist on a "shared path" ever wait behind a pedestrian until it was safe to overtake in the other lane? No, they ring their bell or shout something rude if you're lucky, or else they just whizz past missing by inches - just as cars, trucks and buses do to bikes on the road. I'm sorry, but I'll stick with my grandfather's advice, taking responsibility for keeping myself out of collisions, rather than leaving that responsibility to cyclists approaching from behind at speed. If I had eyes in the back of my head, I'd be happy to walk on the left, but I don't, so I won't. Sorry to rave... I hope this doesn't come across as too aggressive. I just don't like being told to do something that I can see clearly is unsafe. Ian ------------------------------------------------------------ Dr Ian Barnes Email: barnes@cs Department of Computer Science Phone: +61 2 6125 3003 Australian National University Fax: +61 2 6125 0010 ------------------------------------------------------------ From Peter.Strazdins@cs Fri Oct 25 09:28:02 2002 To: Ian.Barnes@cs Subject: Re: Pedestrians on Shared Paths Cc: csitRTW@cs Hi Ian (and Marie), thanks for sharing your views with our group. >> From Ian.Barnes@cs Wed Oct 23 11:17:23 2002 ... >> In the latest RTW newsletter you wrote: >> >> A more sensible development in the issue of shared paths is >> a move by Pedal Power to introduced to the ACT Road Rules >> that 'all path users required to keep to the left'. This >> policy is already in force in SA, Vic & Qld. >> >> As someone who uses the shared paths for both riding and >> walking, I object strongly to this. What this says is that as a >> walker on the path I am supposed to trust cyclists travelling >> at 20-30 km/h to avoid me when they come up on me silently from >> behind. This is exactly the same problem faced by cyclists on >> roads with cars, trucks and buses coming up from behind, and is >> why as a cyclist I don't like riding on roads. >> I'd just like to say a bit on this, and why I think its at least an improvement on the status quo - no rules whatsoever except that its the cyclists responsibility to avoid a collision on shared paths. While I'm OK with this in itself (it follows from a more general principle that a faster/less vulnernable class of user be responsible), nonetheless the rules currently are not sufficient to discourage a minority of pedestrians from walking/jogging in the center, or taking a haphazard course, or from going several abreast effectively blocking the path. Cylists indeed *should* give warning when approaching pedestrians from behind. A little while ago we had a bit of a debate on this, and whether to use a bell or shout `passing' (or similar). Anyway, from the Festival of Cycling launch last week, I picked a pamphlet Enjoying Safe Cycling in ACT, produced by Urban Services, which advises: The law requires a bell, horn or similar warning device. Please use it. Like Marie, the exception I make to this is when there is a pedestrian walking on the right, and for the same reason: for fear they might interpret the warning as `move to the left'... Last winter I regularly jogged home, the route including the same 6km of shared path that I normally ride on (indeed, cyclists are the dominant users, and not infrequently go quite fast, mentioning no names:). I considered the issue on staying on the left or right quite seriously then; I decided the left would actually be safer, as that would be where most cyclists are expecting a pedestrian to be. On the other hand, running on the road down Black Mountain (where cars and bicycle alike approach close, fast and silently), I keep to the right, as like Ian, I dont want to have to trust others for my own safety. >> I believe Pedal Power and the legislation in all those states >> are wrong. Until legislation can guarantee that all cyclists >> will respect the safety of pedestrians (which will never >> happen) I will continue to protect myself by walking on the >> right. >> Occaisionally this issue is raised in letters to the PP magazine, and I think it healthy that people's views are voiced there. If youn like, you could let PP know about your views more widely by submitting a letter to the Canberra Cyclist (instructions are on the PP web page, which you can get to from the csitRTW page). Regards, Peter